I'm setting up a 20 gallon long tank. It hasn't cycled very long and I just started a fishless cycle on Sunday with some bacteria from other tanks to give it a boost. There is nothing in the tank now but a few plants and white play sand with a power head on an undergravel filter.
I started with R/O water that tested out to around 10 ppm total hardness and no KH. I tested the pH once the was filled tank and running overnight and the pH was 7.5. I added 2.5 ml of HCl and the pH went to 6.0. Later the same day I tested again and the pH was back to 7.5. I've been repeating this process 4 times so far. I just tested the water and GH is 90 ppm (seems high to me) and KH is still 0. I even took some of the sand out and tested it with HCL and got no fizz, so it looks like silica sand.
I've never set up a tank with pH lower than 7 before. Will this settle down?
Help setting up an acidic tank
Moderator: Mustafa
what is the pH reading in your r/o water? i know that it is an unreliable reading , though my tap is very alkaline and my ph reading in r/o tends to stay that way until adding a little peat
once peat added it becomes very stable, so prehaps sme natural acids would stabilise a lower ph better than your HCl
andrew
once peat added it becomes very stable, so prehaps sme natural acids would stabilise a lower ph better than your HCl
andrew
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badflash
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My tap is 7.5pH and hardness off scale high, R/O is around pH 8 and 10 ppm hardness, but means pH means nothing for R/O. I change the membrane and charcoal once a year, and I've only had the unit since september. Rated 30 GPD, I use around 5 GPD.
It is starting to settle down. I may be the amonia cycle kicking in that was upsetting the pH.
It is starting to settle down. I may be the amonia cycle kicking in that was upsetting the pH.
There is really no mystery to this, but it's hard to find good information (beyond speculation) on water chemistry in aquarist circles. First of all, RO units do not make water acidic. That's a fact. They remove all kinds of salts and some other things out of the water to a certain degree. There is always something left as in badflash's case. Whatever is left can still have alkalinity builders, which causes the PH to stay above 7. Even if you use a deionizer (DI) unit along with your RO and take out *everything* out of the water, so you end up with pure water, then your PH should be theoretically 7. Pure water with nothing in it has a ph of 7, that's another fact.
So, how come some people end up with acidic water after they pump their water through their RO units? That's because there are already some acids in their drinking water supply. If most of the alkalinity is gone after RO treatment, just a tiny amount of acid can cause the water to become acidic (=PH under 7). Those people are lucky when it comes to shrimp keeping and are usually the ones that proudly announce that they don't do *anything* to make their water perfect for acidic water shrimp breeding.
So, what if your readings show kh=0 and you still have a ph above 7? That is the case with my water supply and apparently with badflash's RO water. I don't know if the fact that we live in the same state has anything to do with it. Basically, a common fallacy is the belief that KH is a reliable measurement and predicts how your water will react to PH changes. That is not the case in many cases. kh only measures the concentration of carbonates in the water. Carbonates are not the only thing that make up alkalinity. So, the test is actually incomplete. In my case, New York City adds sodium hydroxide to its water supply to increase ph (and buffer it there). Sodium hydroxide cannot be measured by any kh test kits so my kh always shows 0. However, the NYC water report tells me that *alkalinity* is, on average, between 12.1 and 51.4ppm (= mg/l). That's enough to raise the ph above 7 and keep it there although my water has 0 kh (and 0 gh, too). I will have to write an article about this, too, and publish it, so there is some clarity in this issue. Water parameters are extremely important in shrimp keeping after all, more so than with most fish.
Badflash, you have to just keep adding the HCL until the ph does not rebound anymore. The HCL keeps eating away at alkalinity (which you undoubtedly still have in your RO water). Just be careful that you don't overshoot. After your ph has stabilized in the acidic range you only need to add more HCL with water changes *after* you measure the ph. And again, I want to emphasize that it's absolutely necessary to get a *good* electronic ph meter. They are much more accurate than any liquid test you can get, which I had to find out the hard way.
Finally, forget about GH or KH measurements. I don't ever use them. I only use my PH meter and my coductivity/TDS meter. Your 10 ppm "total hardness" is not total hardness at all, since GH measurements just measure calcium and magnesium in your water. It does not measure all the other salts that could still be in the water and it for sure does not capture anything that still causes your alkalinity. A conductivity meter captures all salts. So, your ppm readings are likely much higher than what your GH test kit is showing.
Hope this helps.
So, how come some people end up with acidic water after they pump their water through their RO units? That's because there are already some acids in their drinking water supply. If most of the alkalinity is gone after RO treatment, just a tiny amount of acid can cause the water to become acidic (=PH under 7). Those people are lucky when it comes to shrimp keeping and are usually the ones that proudly announce that they don't do *anything* to make their water perfect for acidic water shrimp breeding.
So, what if your readings show kh=0 and you still have a ph above 7? That is the case with my water supply and apparently with badflash's RO water. I don't know if the fact that we live in the same state has anything to do with it. Basically, a common fallacy is the belief that KH is a reliable measurement and predicts how your water will react to PH changes. That is not the case in many cases. kh only measures the concentration of carbonates in the water. Carbonates are not the only thing that make up alkalinity. So, the test is actually incomplete. In my case, New York City adds sodium hydroxide to its water supply to increase ph (and buffer it there). Sodium hydroxide cannot be measured by any kh test kits so my kh always shows 0. However, the NYC water report tells me that *alkalinity* is, on average, between 12.1 and 51.4ppm (= mg/l). That's enough to raise the ph above 7 and keep it there although my water has 0 kh (and 0 gh, too). I will have to write an article about this, too, and publish it, so there is some clarity in this issue. Water parameters are extremely important in shrimp keeping after all, more so than with most fish.
Badflash, you have to just keep adding the HCL until the ph does not rebound anymore. The HCL keeps eating away at alkalinity (which you undoubtedly still have in your RO water). Just be careful that you don't overshoot. After your ph has stabilized in the acidic range you only need to add more HCL with water changes *after* you measure the ph. And again, I want to emphasize that it's absolutely necessary to get a *good* electronic ph meter. They are much more accurate than any liquid test you can get, which I had to find out the hard way.
Finally, forget about GH or KH measurements. I don't ever use them. I only use my PH meter and my coductivity/TDS meter. Your 10 ppm "total hardness" is not total hardness at all, since GH measurements just measure calcium and magnesium in your water. It does not measure all the other salts that could still be in the water and it for sure does not capture anything that still causes your alkalinity. A conductivity meter captures all salts. So, your ppm readings are likely much higher than what your GH test kit is showing.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Mustafa on Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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badflash
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It helps a lot, thanks!
As to the pH meter. Is there a reasonably priced meter that doesn't need constand re-calibration? I have one but I can't trust it. It needs to stay wet, it drifts, I can't use it near the lights, in short it is crap, but I can't afford to spend hundreds of bucks and then find out I can't trust it either.
My unit is a Checker by Hanna. It isn't even waterproof and has no way to hang it in the tank. I'd really like to get a good probe and hang it in the tank full time. I'm good with computers and haver the hardware to read a probe and display it on a PC if I knew what to get. I got some probes surplus but was never able to figure out how they should be connected as they are 4 wire solid state probes made by IBM but with no specs.
You recomended the Hanna phep5. How often do you calibrate and how far off is it when you do?
As to the pH meter. Is there a reasonably priced meter that doesn't need constand re-calibration? I have one but I can't trust it. It needs to stay wet, it drifts, I can't use it near the lights, in short it is crap, but I can't afford to spend hundreds of bucks and then find out I can't trust it either.
My unit is a Checker by Hanna. It isn't even waterproof and has no way to hang it in the tank. I'd really like to get a good probe and hang it in the tank full time. I'm good with computers and haver the hardware to read a probe and display it on a PC if I knew what to get. I got some probes surplus but was never able to figure out how they should be connected as they are 4 wire solid state probes made by IBM but with no specs.
You recomended the Hanna phep5. How often do you calibrate and how far off is it when you do?
I don't know about aquarium pH meters, but for ones used out in the "real world" you need to calibrate them each time you use them... and normally with control solutions.As to the pH meter. Is there a reasonably priced meter that doesn't need constand re-calibration? I have one but I can't trust it. It needs to stay wet, it drifts, I can't use it near the lights, in short it is crap, but I can't afford to spend hundreds of bucks and then find out I can't trust it either.
TKD
That unit is totally useless. I have it too and used it maybe once or twice before threw it in some dark corner out of frustration. That's one of those types that needs to be calibrated for *every* single measurement and even then you do not know if it's correct or not. It's a cheap unit and I guess we got what we paid for. There is absolutely no comparison between the "checker" and a *real* ph meter such as the phep5.badflash wrote: My unit is a Checker by Hanna.
In the instructions it says to calibrate it once a month, but when I calibrated it after a month it was not off at all. Others report that even after about half a year without calibration their units were measuring accurately. To be on the safe side I would follow the instructions and calibrate every month or two, though. It's really extremely reliable and absolutely accurate and very easy to use and calibrate (automatic calibration, no screwdrivers required). I am 100% happy with it and confidently recommend it to anyone who is more serious about shrimp keeping and breeding.You recomended the Hanna phep5. How often do you calibrate and how far off is it when you do?
If you are into DIY, you can buy the phep5 probe separately for about $40.00. I have no idea how you would hook it up to to a display, but if you know, then that's an option for you.
Last edited by Mustafa on Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
i second hte hanna instruments meter, i have one and am very happy with it's reliability and 'lazy user' friendliness
mine has stayed accurate for long periods without calibration , i know with my routine usage and storage calibrate every 4mths
i have a combo pH and EC meter , it is waterproof and can be totally submersed in the tank without ill effects
a second point about EC and kH
if i have understoof mustafa right , he is suggesting that EC is a more accurate measurement of all dissolved products (prehaps i have misunderstood)
this is only true where the disoolved products tend to dissociate into ions to carry current that and EC meter can measure
hence in a saline solution EC and TDS are pretty comparable
though with less soluble compounds the ions may not dissociate and carry a current for every particle in the water , hence the ec and tds are not quite accurate for conversion
saying that because our tap waters are generally composed of similar dissolved compounds then a conversion between ec and our own kh/gh/TDS should be relatively accurate once established
especially if using r/o to dilute these things
andrew
mine has stayed accurate for long periods without calibration , i know with my routine usage and storage calibrate every 4mths
i have a combo pH and EC meter , it is waterproof and can be totally submersed in the tank without ill effects
a second point about EC and kH
if i have understoof mustafa right , he is suggesting that EC is a more accurate measurement of all dissolved products (prehaps i have misunderstood)
this is only true where the disoolved products tend to dissociate into ions to carry current that and EC meter can measure
hence in a saline solution EC and TDS are pretty comparable
though with less soluble compounds the ions may not dissociate and carry a current for every particle in the water , hence the ec and tds are not quite accurate for conversion
saying that because our tap waters are generally composed of similar dissolved compounds then a conversion between ec and our own kh/gh/TDS should be relatively accurate once established
especially if using r/o to dilute these things
andrew
I just received my pHep5 recently, and I have used this product. WOW - it is so awesome...just as accurate as our pH probes in our research laboratory. I love this thing!!! 
(Better yet, I can calibrate my pHep5 straight from my lab! Hehehehe!) Thanks a lot badflash and Mustafa for the advice you have posted for this topic. Now I totally realize and believe that those solution kits for pH are not accurate at all - just garbage. The results are so "statistically significant"! 
And because of badflash and Mustafa's advices, I have also made my planted tank (Flora Base as substrate) to be acidic.
My snowball shrimps are in the other tank (shrimp only tank) together with the green shrimps (Oxyn Sand as substrate). My using HCl at 20%, I was able to lower my pH from 7.2 to 6.6 in a matter of minutes (did that several days ago). I have been checking the pH everyday and still the same at pH 6.6
This is so easy!!! Thank you Mustafa and Badflash!
Now I am able to transfer 2 of my Sri Lanka dwarf shrimps into the planted tank and hopefully I can still find some more, or otherwise I would need to get from Mustafa again. Anyhow, one of the Sri Lanka dwarf shrimp is developing eggs already and one is not. Both are adult sizes already. So hopefully I would have at least one female and one male.
I will update everyone how they come along in the future.
(Better yet, I can calibrate my pHep5 straight from my lab! Hehehehe!) Thanks a lot badflash and Mustafa for the advice you have posted for this topic. Now I totally realize and believe that those solution kits for pH are not accurate at all - just garbage. The results are so "statistically significant"! And because of badflash and Mustafa's advices, I have also made my planted tank (Flora Base as substrate) to be acidic.
My snowball shrimps are in the other tank (shrimp only tank) together with the green shrimps (Oxyn Sand as substrate). My using HCl at 20%, I was able to lower my pH from 7.2 to 6.6 in a matter of minutes (did that several days ago). I have been checking the pH everyday and still the same at pH 6.6This is so easy!!! Thank you Mustafa and Badflash!
Now I am able to transfer 2 of my Sri Lanka dwarf shrimps into the planted tank and hopefully I can still find some more, or otherwise I would need to get from Mustafa again. Anyhow, one of the Sri Lanka dwarf shrimp is developing eggs already and one is not. Both are adult sizes already. So hopefully I would have at least one female and one male.
I will update everyone how they come along in the future.-
carbon etc
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YuccaPatrol
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I posted the following in another thread, but thought that it would be good to cross post it in a more relevant thread for people setting up acidic tanks.
YuccaPatrol wrote:I use peat to soften the water and drop the pH in tanks that need a lower pH than my water supply can offer. Peat is pretty neat stuff. It softens the water by adsorbing carbonate, removes some impurities like activated carbon, and acidifies the water.
I might as well share one of my "secrets" because I don't think I have heard of anyone else using Jiffy peat pots. They start as a hard disk and swell into a little bag of peat when placed in water. I sit them on top of the sponge in my Aquaclear filters. I think they are a neat little self-contained package that is easier to handle in my fish room than a big bag of gardening peat moss.
These can be found at any gardening shop, and only cost about 10 cents each.
The only *problem* with peat is that it gives the water an amber color, but since I grew up in the swamps of northern Florida, brown water is somewhat romantic to me.
